Curse

wheel · Mar 30, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuna of spira

I think many have villified my opinion that all forms of energy management except MoR and ED are weaker in MOST cases for gvg. I think in high level gvg it really comes down to MoR or ED. Personally, i think this type of organizing energy management by these numbers is ignorant even though drawbacks and advantages are posted. It seems these advantages and drawbacks that are not numerical hold more value than are being given credit for. I'll explain why i prefer MoR most of the time, but I am not saying, like others in this post that my preference must therefore be the best hands down.

Vilified, good word

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Quote:

Originally Posted by yuna of spira

As others have said, the CoP/MoR combo is very very good for monks who have something like wenslauss faith or something that can give a fast recharge, as well as against hexing groups. Shame's biggest enemy is the MoR/CoP combo. There are many other situations in which hexing is easily taken care of with this combo (dont forget, CoP gives 60hp as heal and only has 1/4 cast).

In most cases, Shame is just as easily dealt with by Divine Boon/CoP than with MoR+Boon/CoP. It's such a disabling hex that if you're going against a monk disabling spike team, it's necessary to CoP it off, and having the extra hex removal with CoP isn't usually an issue. CoP actually gives a 70-84 point heal (13-16 Divine Favor) per enchantment lost. Against hex stacking teams without energy denial, though, I would definitely prefer Mantra of Recall. That being said, I have not seen a hex stacking team in quite some time, and most of them bring energy denial. The metagame is 2 wars, 2 surge/burn doms, 2-3 monk, 1-2 utility characters/flagger (usually E/Mo or N/Mo), or some derivation of a spike build, with various other builds thrown in for good measure. Hex overload builds a very uncommon in the current metagame, mainly because energy denial is so common.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuna of spira

Another reason as others have said is that it does not require a second job of monks to play a little offense. With ED, you must get into range of someone who has energy...that means those 2 warriors beating on you are not options, so for most monks most of the time you must move up into range, which takes time, distracts the monk from monking duties, and puts the monk more in harms way of aggro. 8 energy denial every 25 secs is NOT a form of energy denial.....it is a nuisance IF the person in range is low on energy in the first place. Personally I think a monk should feel he/she is free to retreat backward and force the mesmer to aggro forward so that your team can take advantage of overextenders....your monks should not be the ones coming to them....a good kiting monk can evade some of a mesmers drains while forcing a mesmer to overcommit. There are just so many inconvenient things you are forcing a monk to do by running forward for a ED.

I addressed this in the initial post about one of the disadvantages of ED & Drain Enchantment. In most cases, a short burst of forward positioning as a monk isn't an issue. Also, if positioning is an issue, those two Warriors beating on you are actually very prime targets for EDrain. Very few times have I EDrained warriors in our backline and had them come up dry (when I say "dry," I mean less than 8 energy stolen). Draining the warriors of energy instead of their Mesmers or Monks will usually accomplish less for your team, but it certainly makes it easier for your monks to gain their energy back in a game where positioning is very tight. If overextension is so prohibitive for your setting, then Warriors definitely are great. The overextension issue is less of a problem than it's made out to be in the current metagame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuna of spira

I understand that it is a big problem for MoR if they die and get rezzed, how do they get energy back right away? I personally switch to the +15en -1regen offhand item as soon as I am rezzed....slap on MoR, and do my thing. Once MoR is about to end and is flashing, I switch back to normal, drop max en, and get my 23 en while I was able to keep up heals with -1 regen cuz i still had 20 en even after casting MoR....plus, if they kill your enchantment early, then you get it back sooner than expected and youre on your way.

The problem with dying isn't so bad of a problem for me with focus swapping. The bigger problem is using MoR effectively in an energy denial metagame. You don't control when you garner the benefit of MoR against an energy denial mesmer. When you're in the swing of battle against an energy denial team, MoR is much more fragile. When you're low on energy and waiting on MoR to expire for the energy boost, the energy denial teams will be able to keep you at 0 energy if they really want. If you focus swap up to +E/-Regen sets to cast while you're waiting on the energy from MoR, the mesmer will punish you for doing so by draining you even more when you're swapped up. When MoR is about to expire (and good edenial dom mesmers will know when both monks' MoR is about to expire), they can lay on the energy denial hard because they'll know you can't hide the energy. Plus, if they really want to when you're sitting at 0 energy and MoR is up, they can shatter/drain MoR and then throw energy denial at you that way. Or, when you're sitting at full energy, they can shatter MoR so that you gain nothing. They don't have to know when MoR is about to expire, but they do anyway. The options are limitless.

Energy Drain is less susceptible to this because of the fact that you have more control over when you use it. You control when you get the energy gain from it, which means that if you're sitting at full energy, you don't run the chance of your energy management netting you zero net gain. Also, since it's not an enchantment, the dom mesmer can't trigger it at will and unleash his energy denial on you to screw you over. Also, you don't have to swap up to your +E/-Regen sets as much because you don't have to gimp yourself of 10e while you wait for it to return to you. It's just much more flexible than MoR in the current metagame where dual surge/burn mesmers are extremely popular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuna of spira

Its a great idea to put things in perspective of the advantages and disadvantages of each in numbers, but realistically you cant use those numbers to get an end-all result to support one way or another.

No, but you can get a good idea how much that you've got to gain from taking on drawbacks of one skill versus another in different settings. The more you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuna of spira

I know most of the top guilds are using ED, but I think its because most have not tried out MoR enough......Also, I do believe ED has a bit better benefit in pressure builds while MoR can be a little bit better sometimes in attruition builds. I use MoR in gvg since the update and out of many matches against top guilds and edenial I have only run out of energy consistently against a 2 warrior fear me + mesmer edenial build, now THAT is rough. It really comes down to what your overall team build can do to help you out in situations, and coming up with THE BEST NO MATTER WHAT SITUATION is absurd and ignorant of the possibilities out there.

Most top guilds know the drawbacks of both MoR & EDrain, and make intelligent decisions based upon what they realistically think they're going to be facing and what would work in that setting. The 2 Surge/Burn mesmer build is extremely popular in the current ladder season, and that alone makes MoR harder to work.

Sabe · Apr 04, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

In an organised team what do you think of the idea of using Victory is mine as an energy management skill? its easily enuf to keep conditions on a team with or without them having rc or martyr. such as bringing a tainted necro/rotting flesh.

Then all monk needs to do is be in the vicinity of a few foes and shout VIM to obtain health / energy.

Dont moan - just thought it was another energy management skill to look at.

TalRashaLegacy · Apr 04, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Hey, excellent guide! I just have a few suggestions. I apologize for my lack of numbers in this because I have GW closed out and GW Guru up to read the postings, but please consider my posting.

My character is Tal the Protector, and I spend all my free time doing Hell's Precipice over and over again

cuz its my favorite mission. For energy maintenance, I use Power Drain and Spirit of Failure at either lev 10 or 11 Inspiration, dont remember off the top of my head. The Power Drain i think provides either 17 or so energy if you interrupt a spell, and those Risen Ashen Claws cast Shadow Strike, Shadow of Fear and Aura of the Lich, all of which are easily interrupted, and I put Spirit of Failure on Burning Titans, and those Fist and Hands of the Titans. As a protector, I have some pretty energy expensive skills, especially if you try to boon heal. And I find no problem AT ALL keeping my energy up in this mission so I never use a battery. The REAL magic of Spirit of Failure shines nicely when the whole group dies and u're off to solo a Fist or Hand of the Titan lol. You can use Aegis and Spirit of Failure on the target. Since they have an elevated chance to miss you with the Aegis, you have an elevated chance to gaining 4 energy for each hit they miss, thus allowing you to do some damage, and if they hit you, you definitely have the energy to spam RoF on yourself and keep SoF and Aegis up. This generally works nicely because it can keep you around to res the group. Here's my build:

Aegis
Protective Spirit
Reversal of Fortune
Divine Boon
Power Drain
Spirit of Failure
Rebirth
Shield of Regeneration

Divine Favor 12
Prot Prayers 13
Inspiration 10-11 I forgot which

Try it... it's a very nice energy maintenance trick: power drain to interrupt spells and then SoF them and use something like Aegis to make them miss you more often lol

Siliconwafer · Apr 05, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

I guess that would be fine for PvE but as a monk I don't have the time to camp a caster to cast Power Drain in PvP, nor do I like having to cast a three second SoF (interrupt bait, plus the actual downtime of three seconds)-not to mention that it would get removed very quickly unless it was part of a nasty hex stacking build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabe

In an organised team what do you think of the idea of using Victory is mine as an energy management skill? its easily enuf to keep conditions on a team with or without them having rc or martyr. such as bringing a tainted necro/rotting flesh.

Then all monk needs to do is be in the vicinity of a few foes and shout VIM to obtain health / energy.

Indeed ViM is nice but you run into problems with martyr and the fact that your monks are forced to sometimes position themselves in the midline, which isn't trivial. I'd only consider it in a condition heavy build.

wheel · Apr 08, 2006, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slooty Booty

Some people have mentioned Power Drain, but it wasn't listed in the original article. Here are the numbers [I'm no stat major like Wheel, feel free to correct incorrectitudes]

Power Drain 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.15
Casts/Minute: 3.8461538
Energy/Minute: 62.307692
Energy Pips: 3.1153845

Of course trying to interrupt enemy casters takes time away from healing...

Power Drain certainly slipped my mind. However, the numbers for Power Drain are lower than what you report. The numbers for Power Drain (and if I get around to it, I'll put that in the guide) would be:

PDrain2 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.305
Casts/Minute: 2.954937208
Energy/Minute: 48.4609702
Energy Pips: 2.42304851
Energy Swing/Minute: 48.4609702
Energy Swing Pips: 2.42304851

2. Assumed are Garbok's Cane & Chalice (single 20% cast, dual 20% recharge mods, +1 20% Inspiration) (Wand & Offhand)

Of course, Power Drain is the most conditional and hardest to use becuase it relies on micromanaging much more than Drain Enchantment or Energy Drain. In games without many casters, it's hard to use and forces overextension, as well. At any rate, it's certainly a skill to take a look at in a place like Tombs where there's fewer issues with overextension and there's more casters to interrupt.

Wessels · Apr 11, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

I know most of the top guilds are using ED, but I think its because most have not tried out MoR enough......

They are slowly but surely discovering it though. have seen numerous topguilds using MoR instead of Edrain. Most commonly seen combination is inspired hex+ MoR.

zling · Apr 15, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

since energy management is such a huge problem for both PvE and PvP, mostly PvP though, than why are the only "real" energy management skills elite? that kinda makes all the other elites useless...'
unless there is some magical combo of none elite skills as a good alternative for energy management...

Roupe · Apr 22, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Glyph of Lesser energy, is also a good energy management skill -though it doesnt perse gives energy

chumsy · May 06, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Just wondering, but how effective would Peace and Harmony be for running a bond monk along with an extra maintainted enchantment and blessed signet?

Thom · May 14, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Answer to chumsy: PaH is not a good option for a bond monk since blessed sig is normally enough for most standard bonding builds.

Question: Air of Enchantment is a fun energy management skill I use for boon/prot builds. Any comments on this "active form of energy management?

wheel · May 16, 2006, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roupe

Glyph of Lesser energy, is also a good energy management skill -though it doesnt perse gives energy

Glyph of Lesser Energy is subpar. It requires the use of a 15e+ spell to utilize it fully, restricting you a lot on many monk builds. At any rate, here's the numbers, which aren't exactly impressive:

Glyph of Lesser Energy
Recycle: 31
Casts/Minute: 1.935483871
Energy/Minute: 19.35483871
Energy Pips: 0.967741935
Energy Swing/Minute: 19.35483871
Energy Swing Pips: 0.967741935

Sanji · May 19, 2006, 10:21 AM // 10:21

My thread got closed, I was directed to repost my question here. (even if it's not really about crunching the numbers of energy management skills...)

Are any of the new faction Monk elites efficient enough to be worth using? I like Healing Light, it's not that hard or expensive to get someone enchanted, and of course some people even enchant themselves, but I'm still concerned that I haven't used it enough or been in a situation where it'd fail me while Mantra of Recall wouldn't.

And you know, I really don't want to fail a group I'm in just because I wanted to try something new.

gabrial heart · May 26, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Do any any the following lower or negate the health cost of OoB or BiP?

-Prot Spirit
-Prot Bond
-RoF
-Life Sheath

IMO MoR isn't the greatest deal for e-management. I have in the past run duel BiP monks, with a Divine/Prot monk for spikers, but i just recently thought that if any of those reduced the health cost they might be viable alteratives again.

Cherng Butter · May 31, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

doesn't ooB + sig of devotion work just fine?

wheel · Jun 03, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherng Butter

doesn't ooB + sig of devotion work just fine?

If someone was playing PvE, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabrial heart

Do any any the following lower or negate the health cost of OoB or BiP?
-Prot Spirit
-Prot Bond
-RoF
-Life Sheath

no.

gabrial heart · Jun 05, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

i took some time and played in 4v4, random, gvg's and alliance battle, in which i have to say the GoR/DS combo works the best. Typically as i get stripped, during recharge even. i still manage to have a nice pool of energy. Geting interrupted usualy happens during GoR, so i can still kite and cast DS, then continue kiting till i get recharged. Any build (as it should be) has a counter or numerous counters, like diversion, shadow shroud... But for e-return/managment i think you're going to get the biggest bang for your buck with this combo.

Still the thing that kills me on all these e-management ideas is that precious elite slot that is dying to be filled with WoH, Healing Hands or Life Sheath or SB for those cases, you've gotta go with consume, esurge, channeling, etc...

Age · Jun 16, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I was just wondering what does everyone think of OoB?I checked this out with my Monk and it gave me 8 energy not 5.How good is this for pvp still despite the drop in health %?I just don't want to cap MoR after capping this out before it got nerfed.Thanks.

T bad Warriors endruance is not attributed to tactics although it is adrenal.

mylite · Jun 20, 2006, 06:18 AM // 06:18

...just wow, first off, you need blood magic, 2nd off 5 energy is the cast cost...and warriors endurance should be banned, why would a MONK be attacking with MELEE?!?!?! do you even have a brain? and capping mor takes like 3 minutes...

Age · Jun 23, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylite

...just wow, first off, you need blood magic, 2nd off 5 energy is the cast cost...and warriors endurance should be banned, why would a MONK be attacking with MELEE?!?!?! do you even have a brain? and capping mor takes like 3 minutes...

Yes I do have brain and I have probably have monking longer than you.I just don't want to have to waste what I capped in OoB.It takes 3 mins to cap MoR where?

Drax Daruk · Jun 23, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

I know this can't possibly be calculated, and I didnt bother to read the entire thread, but what about channeling... and maybe bringing RC as ur elite?

IMHO: Channeling FTW